Host:
[00:00:00] Welcome to "Holding onto Hope," a series that shares the stories of everyday Australians that have experienced moments in crisis and found a path to support. Whilst all of the stories shared offer hope and inspiration, at times you may hear something you find triggering. If you or someone you know needs crisis support, please phone Lifeline on 131114, text 0477 131114, or visit lifeline.org.au for Lifeline chat service, which is 24/7.

Interviewer:
[00:00:31] Today's guest is Bryan. After a successful technology career in the U.S., Bryan spent almost a decade at Atlassian as a Product Manager and General Manager. From the outside, life looked like it was unfolding exactly as planned.

After deciding to move out of tech and leave Atlassian, Bryan set off on a solo journey along the East Coast of Australia in an RV, imagining it would be the beginning of a new chapter. Instead, it became the start of the most difficult period of his life.

As long-held identities fell away, Bryan found himself facing a mental health crisis he never saw coming. It was through reaching out, accepting support, and rebuilding his sense of self that he found a way forward. Today, Bryan shares his story to remind others that mental health struggles don't always look the way we expect, and that hope often begins with connection.

Bryan, welcome. Thank you for joining us and telling us your story today.

Bryan:
[00:01:30] It's great to be here. Thanks, Carla.

Interviewer:
[00:01:31] Life looks quite different for you now. You've settled in Yamba, a beautiful town in northern New South Wales, and built a new community, speaking about living with more intention. What does life feel like for you now?

Bryan:
[00:01:46] It feels pretty great. Part of it is maybe returning to my origins. I was a small-town kid in a river community called King Salmon, Alaska, population 400. And I grew up in a trailer. It was a simple life and fully connected to nature.

And so a few years ago, I went on this adventure to find my future home. And Yamba was the sort of perfect match for the type of community that I was looking for. And it's been a fantastic transition where I get to live a little bit more purposely and purposeful every day.

Interviewer:
[00:02:21] So looking back, you imagined your life after Atlassian as a victory lap, a chance to slow down, focus on purpose. But what has this chapter actually taught you about what makes a meaningful life?

Bryan:
[00:02:36] That idea of purpose and meaning, I don't think I realised a number of things. One was, in a lot of ways, we're evolved to seek purpose. And on a daily basis, most of us are not worried about what our next meal is, where we're going to find shelter. Some in society still have those, but for most of us, those are not our purpose, and they don't drive us minute by minute.

And so as a result, we can often find ourselves sort of lacking purpose. And so this pursuit of purpose is actually this never-ending quest in life where you sort of always should be looking for purpose and finding ways to explore it.

And they don't have to be grand. They don't have to be solving global problems. They can be helping your neighbour out in their yard. They can be in Yamba, I've joined a small group of pensioners who are trying to reduce the invasive cane-toad population. And so you find purpose often in the most unexpected places.

I think my biggest challenge in finding that meaning and finding that purpose was actually patience. I'm not a very patient person. Learning to experiment and try out different things and just realise, well maybe.

Interviewer:
[00:03:40] Feeling comfortable.

Bryan:
[00:03:41] This one's not me, but this one is. And so some of the best experiences I've had in sort of this chapter of life is saying yes to new things and then figuring out, does this fit me? And does this give me the both extrinsic and intrinsic reward that I'm looking for?

Interviewer:
[00:03:56] It sounds very purposeful to find that purpose. It's a meta conversation.

Bryan:
[00:04:00] It is. That's right. It takes some work to get it done.

Interviewer:
[00:04:03] And before leaving Atlassian, your identity was really closely tied to your work. And when that role came to an end, what did you discover about yourself that surprised you, that wasn't there for you already?

Bryan:
[00:04:16] It was a much bigger shock than I expected. I think the story that I'd been telling myself for years, and in fact, even before moving to Australia, I was going to leave tech at 40 and go teach maths in a high school.

And so my journey to Australia and then working at Atlassian was sort of this bonus on top of everything where I found a group of people who I was just amazed at who I got to work with on a daily basis. I really admired and respected the people who I worked with. It was the best work of my life. And in leaving when I did, I really thought about it as like, I'm going out on top. I've achieved my dreams. And so now I'm on to some amazing next chapter.

But I've never been a fan of work-life balance. I've always sort of been about how do you unite your passion with what you do on a daily basis. And so there was no amount of work that was too much if I loved what I was doing. And there are times where work and maybe exercise were 100% of my identity.

And I'd never thought about what would happen once I decided to just stop one part of what had been the dominant notion of who I was, what I do for a living, the companies I work for, the type of work I do, the products that I got to work on, the teams that I got to work with.

In that vacuum, I found myself completely unequipped to deal with this absence of the purpose of the identity that I'd maintained for so long. It sent me in an absolute and complete spiral.

It's interesting because when I made that decision, I've never been someone who's been unafraid of a new adventure. I grew up in Alaska, but always knew that would not be my long-term home. I moved out and went to school in California, worked in Silicon Valley, and then took off to Austin, Texas, where I spent most of my professional career, and then decided to move halfway around the world to Australia. And so picking up and starting out in a new place with a new adventure was not something that.

Interviewer:
[00:06:11] Wasn't foreign to you.

Bryan:
[00:06:12] It wasn't foreign to me. But there'd always been this thread of who I was. And I think I've always held probably too strong of a sense of identity my entire life that when it got to this part where one part of my identity, essentially, I was making the decision to remove it. But once it was gone, I didn't have anything to fall back on. And so a lot of the concepts of who I was didn't serve me very well at that point.

Even nine months before my departure from Atlassian, I had made the decision to leave. And at that time was really where things started, even though I wasn't aware of what was happening.

I began to feel like a passenger in my own body, that I was watching myself participate in conversations. I was watching myself do things as opposed to actually having agency and doing them myself. And later on, I learned this is what's called disassociation. I was kind of refusing to accept this sort of torrent of discomfort with the decision that I had made, that my subconscious was basically rebelling against my choice to leave what had been the bedrock of my identity.

And so over time, it became worse and worse and worse where I wasn't really conscious of it, but I began to isolate myself from people because it was so uncomfortable to be in a room with someone where I'm watching myself talking to them and thinking, "I don't want to be in this situation. What am I saying? I just want to not feel this way."

Instead of sort of getting help at that particular time or those particular times, I began to distance myself more and more from others, which, of course, is the exact opposite thing that I needed to do. I should have reached out at that point.

And that led to the culmination to where I found myself writing things that I didn't remember. I was actively contemplating self-harm and was not aware that that was happening. It was a months and months long journey until it finally boiled over and I had to confront it and deal with it.

Interviewer:
[00:08:13] So you set off on your RV trip thinking it would help you decide where to begin your next chapter. Instead, it slowly revealed that something much deeper was going on. Looking back, when do you think you first realised that things weren't quite right?

Bryan:
[00:08:30] That trip was a tale of two different worlds that I was living in at the same time. And the first one was, "I've achieved all my goals. The finish line is in front of me. Now let's go explore what life could be in the future."

And I mean, on a daily basis, my life was great. I'd get up in the morning. I'd usually be on the coast. I'd go for a long ocean swim. I've always loved the ocean in Australia. And then I'd get back. I'd eat breakfast at the highest rated cafe on Google Maps in town. And then I'd get in the RV and drive to the next town and scramble around interviewing the locals. "Why do you live here? What do you like about it? Why have you settled here?" And sort of this overly planned investigation of Australia and where I might want to live in the future.

But underneath it all, things were happening that I was just completely suppressing. I was writing in my journal each night and completely unaware of what I was writing. I was not sleeping well. And I've never been a great sleeper in life, but sleep was very, very bad that week.

And I returned back home to Sydney after what should be an amazing week, and I should be feeling excited about this next chapter. And something was very wrong. And I didn't know what it was, but I felt so much worse than when I'd left.

Interviewer:
[00:09:51] So after that trip with your journal, you sat on a park bench and read through it. And you've said it felt like almost like someone else had written it. What was that experience like?

Bryan:
[00:10:06] Honestly, it was terrifying. It was probably one of the hardest sets of moments that began then and lasted for a good part of the next year.

Reading your own words that you know you've written, they're in your handwriting, but you don't recognise. You don't remember writing down what you've read. And here was a chronicle of every night basically building out a plan for how I was going to end my own life. This wasn't a, "I wasn't reviewing breakfast and how it was in the morning. I wasn't talking about how wonderful the water was that I swam in that morning." It was a decision and a direction that I didn't want to be alive anymore.

And that was such a sharp contrast to what I thought I had been doing, which was working on this new chapter and instead seeing a concerted decision to end it all. And I felt like my grip on reality was slipping at that point. I felt like I was detached.

And I think most of all, this idea was, "That can't be me. I can't have written this. This is impossible. This does not happen to me." And there's a lot of stigma and stereotyping that I think had been baked into me for a long period of time around issues around mental health. And so when I began to experience anything, it wasn't just the bad feelings that bothered me. It was the idea that this was happening to me.

I like to pride myself on being self-aware, but I think I'm also very good at denial in certain cases. And this is where I could no longer deny that I was in serious trouble. I don't know if anyone noticed this person just sobbing and shaking on this park bench with this notebook in front of them. But I could not believe it. It couldn't be real. It was such a disconnect from my own perception of myself and from everything I felt like I'd been experiencing.

But it began to make me realise that this had been going on for months, that I'd been living a very different life than sort of what I'd been pretending to be living.

Interviewer:
[00:12:17] And you eventually reached out to a counsellor. And she gently, but directly, said to you that you were at risk of suicide. And you've said that hearing those words was almost more confronting than the struggles and the experience themselves. Why was that such a significant moment for you?

Bryan:
[00:12:37] In life, I've faced some challenges in the past. The loss of my father was very difficult for me. I actually had a kidney transplant 22 years ago, and so had a real health scare and challenge and didn't know what my future might look like back then. And I've been through divorce.

But the idea that I could be contemplating suicide felt like a completely different universe from that. I could not possibly imagine that I would do that, that this rigid identity that I had built for myself just was completely contradicted by the idea that I would end my own life. And I think that conflict, that rigidity, that refusal to accept that I was actually having this problem really exacerbated the difficulty and the challenge that I had.

The stigma of that's something that happens to people with a diagnosed mental illness. And someone who's successful, who's made it, who has achieved their dreams would never experience something like this. And it's almost like, well, they don't even deserve to experience something like this because their life is so good.

And so there's a lot of really harmful and not helpful negative self-talk that began to compound the problems of just the fact that I felt that I wanted to hurt myself. Those things actually kept me from getting help rather than just dealing with the core feeling that I had to begin with.

Interviewer:
[00:14:08] Yeah. So reconciling these two very different ideas or positions of life was actually a barrier for you to move forward and think about ways to help yourself, find some support.

Bryan:
[00:14:22] Absolutely. And luckily, I was not new to therapy. And so I think if I look at myself in my 20s, if you would have said the word therapy to me. In fact, someone did say the word therapy in my 20s. And it was like as if they'd said, "Why don't you give all your worldly possessions away and go become a monk in a monastery?" It was like, "Yeah, let's come down to earth and talk about real things."

I went through a set of experiences in my 30s, including the loss of my father, an organ transplant, divorce. And through those experiences, I was recommended to seek therapy, sought therapy. So I at least knew it was a tool out there for me.

And I had someone who I trusted and met in Sydney about six or seven years earlier and reached out for a recommendation. And luckily, she said, "Actually, I see individuals, not just couples." So I reached out. And that was the beginning of sort of the healing process.

And she's both a nurturing individual, but also taught me a number of concrete lessons immediately during that session that safeguarded me from sort of potential escalation of the problem.

And one of those was finding a safety contact who every night I would check in with. And she made me pledge to her in front of her that before I take any action or if I get to a place where I'm seriously contemplating self-harm, that I will reach out to someone. And so she was well-versed in all the lessons. And I left there with sort of more of a foundation for how to go forward.

It wasn't an easy journey. And it sort of got worse at some point before it got better. But I'm incredibly thankful for her help.

Interviewer:
[00:16:10] So one night, after trying to avoid a friend who was trying to check in on you, you found yourself in a place where you realised you'd become completely dissociated from what was happening around you. What do you remember about that moment? And what did it reveal to you about the state that you were in?

Bryan:
[00:16:31] Again, it's almost like reading my journal when I think back to what happened and trying to wonder, "Who experienced that?" Because I was there. I was there watching it, but it was actually me going through it. The disbelief that this is what was happening was so strong.

This was my safety person who I checked in with every night. And my check-in that night was, "Hey, I'm not doing well." And my friend Kelly said, "Okay, great. Why don't you come down and hang out with us? Spend some time with us, be with us for a while." And I said, "I don't want to be around people." And so Kelly, being the good friend that she was, said, "Okay, I'm coming to you."

And the response that that triggered was fear. And so I fled my own apartment and disappeared into the woods. And I'm getting text messages and calls, and I'm ignoring them. And I continue to go farther and farther.

And then I found myself at a place where I could have easily ended my life. And I don't know if that's the reason I went there. That's the hardest part is, again, this complete sort of disconnect from feeling like you're in control of your own life. And I sat there wondering, "Did I come here to do this? Is this why I'm here? Is this what I'm supposed to do?"

And I don't know how I I mean, I don't remember making the decision to go there. I don't remember making the decision to leave. I don't remember having agency in my decisions. And again, this feeling of almost watching yourself do something.

But luckily, through the persistence of my friend, I left that area. And I came down and agreed to meet her. And she spent hours with me sort of helping me get back to a more stable place, making sure I was safe, and really getting me to a place where the danger had passed.

Once again, this was almost it wasn't even half of the experience. It was realizing that that was me doing this that took me a long time to accept.

Interviewer:
[00:18:46] One of the things that stands out is your friend Kelly. She didn't give up. She kept reaching out. That her persistence was right there and central to your experience. Looking back now, what did that persistence, that keep on reaching out to you, what did that mean to you?

Bryan:
[00:19:02] It means an incredible amount. It could have, for me, meant the difference between life and death in some ways. I don't know what could have happened, but I certainly know that her presence and her finding me and talking me down and coming back to spend time with her was sort of fundamental in my journey.

And I think we all underestimate the willingness of other people to help. We think other people don't want to be bothered. I will be a nuisance. I'm interrupting someone's night at home or any of those sorts of things. And again and again throughout this experience, I learned that other people actually want to help you.

We talked about purpose early on. And near the end of my sort of journey, I had the chance to help someone else who was going through a different challenge. And it was amazing how that helped me almost more than my efforts to help myself.

Giving others that sense of purpose and asking for help was probably taught to be the rugged individualist far too much. And it turns out one of the best gifts in life is asking for someone to help. That's one of the best gifts you can give them.

I was incredibly lucky that without exception, anyone who I asked for assistance during those next few months of difficulty, just like Kelly, responded with incredibly positive form and helped me through it.

Interviewer:
[00:20:26] You've spoken about how important it was to have trusted friends and that they knew what was happening, even though they didn't quite know what to say sometimes. What did those conversations teach you about asking for help?

Bryan:
[00:20:40] There's just no reason not to ask, I think. And asks can be anything. We all can help people in different ways. We all need different types of help. And so it might be, "Hey, just want to go for a walk." You may not even say anything, but being there next to someone. Or it may be, "I'm in real trouble. I need help now."

There's a moment in my family history where it taught me that not everyone is as capable as my therapist or Kelly in managing these situations, but they all have great intentions.

After my father had passed away, the doorbell of my parents' home rang, and I answered it. And it was a family friend, this 80-year-old gentleman. And he sat there with tears in his eyes. And he looked at me and he said, "It's a ham." And he handed me a ham and shut the door and ran off. That was about as deep emotionally as he could get to acknowledge the loss of my father.

And so we're all on a different scale in our ability to help each other through these details. And some are friends who will just go for a walk with you.

One of my coworkers at Atlassian said, "I'm really not good with words. I'm really not good at talking about this stuff. But anytime you want to go cycling or go out there and go kayaking and you need a running buddy, I'm there in a heartbeat."

Interviewer:
[00:21:56] Give me a call.

Bryan:
[00:21:57] That's right. And so we all bring different skills and talents to things, whether that's making a meal for someone, whether that's being an empathetic listener, whether that's being a running companion.

Interviewer:
[00:22:06] Or dropping off a ham.

Bryan:
[00:22:07] Or dropping off a ham. Exactly. And I guess the other side is for someone who's not capable of dealing with it, that's their journey, not yours. And for people who respond negatively to it, maybe those aren't the best people to have in your life at this particular point in time. I've never regretted reaching out to anyone and telling my story or asking for help during that period of time.

Interviewer:
[00:22:30] One of my favourite moments of your story comes from your friend Mary. You were talking about everything you needed to do to recover. And Mary simply reminded you, "You're already doing those things." Why did those words have that profound impact for you?

Bryan:
[00:22:47] I think sometimes in life, I look for a more complicated answer than is necessary. And especially after going through such a period of irrationality, there is this desire to be getting healthier. And I think Mary really helped me by helping me realise, well, no, I'd already started that journey.

I was on that journey that things like making sure I had sleep, that I was eating well, that I was exercising, that I was beginning to actually learn to recognise when I was having challenges through meditation and through talking through it with therapy, and especially to reaching out and having these conversations with friends.

It was sort of my wizard of Oz moment where I realised I was wearing the ruby slippers the whole time and that the things that I had begun to do, I was on the path to recovery, that I was already practicing what I needed to do to get better and better every day.

And I think just taking that negative concept that, "Oh, am I going to get better?" That fear, that anxiety of, "Is this changing the direction of my life?" instead of just focusing on, "You did a great job today, Bryan. You did everything that you were supposed to."

Interviewer:
[00:23:56] You are already recovering.

Bryan:
[00:23:57] You're ticking the simple boxes. And it doesn't have to be more complicated than what you're doing. So just keep doing it and have some trust. And I was already feeling better. And her conversation just, or her, I guess, words of encouragement took such a burden off me that I didn't need to carry in the first place.

Interviewer:
[00:24:16] These days, you spoke about always having the safety contact, the Kelly or the Mary or someone you know you can contact when things start to feel a bit wobbly. Why has that become such an important part of staying well for you?

Bryan:
[00:24:30] I think lowering that barrier to being able to ask for help is actually really important. And so especially when I moved to Yamba, I was leaving a support network in Sydney that I had. I had a lot of people who knew my history. And so if I called them, I knew I would have a moment's response. They'd be there in a heartbeat.

But here's this new community where no one really knows me. No one knows my story.

And so a few weeks in, I had made a friend who just seemed like that kind of person who would drop everything and help. And so I sat down with him and I said, "Listen, I don't anticipate any late-night calls, but just in case, I want to tell you my story." And I laid out for him a lot of things that you and I have talked about.

It's just great so that if something did happen when I needed help or I got through a wobbly moment where I just needed to talk to someone, there wasn't that hurdle of, "Oh my gosh, I've got to spend the first 15 minutes and do the whole story and walk them through all the details just so they have the context and the ability to just pick up the phone and call and say, 'I'm in trouble. I need help. Can you come? Or can I come to you?'"

And there's sort of a reassurance there that I have that lifeline, so to speak, anytime I need it that's local and already has the context. I see him about once every couple of weeks. And our families have dinner together and those sorts of things. So it's a fantastic thing to have that's there just a moment's notice away.

Interviewer:
[00:25:53] That's a highly vulnerable thing to do, to open up to a new person and tell them the story. What was his response?

Bryan:
[00:25:59] Oh, he said, "No problem at all." Couldn't have made me feel easier about it.

And I think, I mean, in life, we develop some senses for people. Sometimes we're right, sometimes we're wrong. But I could just tell that this individual was someone who you just saw him through. He lived a life of empathy. And so if you saw anyone talk about whether they had a challenge, their car broke down, you saw empathy from this individual. And so I knew that more than likely, if I was to express it, he wasn't going to say, "Get away from me," or, "What are you talking about? Don't call me at night."

Interviewer:
[00:26:35] Yeah, yeah.

Bryan:
[00:26:35] So it was, yeah, my instincts proved correct in that case, for sure.

Interviewer:
[00:26:40] You've also described recognising the early signs that you're beginning to experience that dissociation or withdrawal. How have you learned to notice those warning signs much earlier than you once did when the journal was such a surprise?

Bryan:
[00:26:56] It's definitely something that takes practice. You don't wake up one moment and all of a sudden you're capable of doing it.

And so meditation was actually a key part of it where you sort of quiet everything and you have to ask yourself, "How am I doing? What am I feeling? What are the thoughts that are coming into my head?" And you may not focus on those thoughts, but you just acknowledge them and let them go. And so learning to do these sort of check-ins with yourself.

My partner and I now even do like a one out of ten score on physical, mental, and emotional at times. If it seems like I'm maybe a little irritated or something like that, she'll ask me my numbers and I'll give it to her.

And she and I actually also do a weekly kind of family meeting, but check-in where we talk about what's top of your list in terms of stress. How can I help you this week? And those force you to actually verbalise. We start off our sort of check-in with, "What's one word to describe how you feel?" And one word to describe how you feel about our relationship.

Interviewer:
[00:27:58] Wow.

Bryan:
[00:27:59] And so right off the bat, you've got to stop and do a check-in and be like, "Okay, how am I? And how do I describe that to my partner so that if I do need something or I'm a little bit angry or depressed or scared or stressed or overwhelmed, I use my words?" And usually, almost always with the one word, the next question is, "Okay, what do you mean by that?" And so then you get the full explanation.

Interviewer:
[00:28:22] But it's not enough.

Bryan:
[00:28:23] That's right. But it's a good exercise because you don't ramble. You focus, but then you get to explain. And so I think over time, as you become more self-aware and you begin to use those words to describe how you are, then you begin to actually notice, "Oh, wait, I'm a little agitated today."

But the flip side is you get to notice the positive too. And I think sometimes we only ask ourselves, "What's wrong today? What's the bad part?" But four weeks ago, after some travel, I got back home and I realised I haven't felt this good in two years.

Interviewer:
[00:28:54] Wow.

Bryan:
[00:28:55] And that's an awesome thing to feel, right? Is that I'm actually at a really great point in life right now. And in six months, I may be going through a difficult time. But right now, things are really good and I should appreciate that and remember this when I have these moments.

Interviewer:
[00:29:09] You've spoken about a particular song called "Sit Down" by James, which includes the line about mental health coming in waves. You've taken that a step further, saying it's a bit like getting caught in a rip. Can you tell us a bit more about this analogy and what it's taught you about managing your own mental health?

Bryan:
[00:29:28] I was a swimmer by background in high school and got to Australia and loved the concept of ocean swimming. Really hadn't done a lot of it. So it was a fun new skill to learn. And there was a morning swimming group that I would go out with.

And I remember one morning we got out and the waves were just massive. They were bigger than I'd ever swum in before. And I turned to the guy next to me and I said, "So we don't go out this morning. We return back and go home." And he laughed and he said, "Nope. We still swim. We still swim, mate."

And we got out there and made it to the turnaround point. And I leaned over to him and I said, "Do we still go back the same way?" And he said, "Oh, no. Don't go back the normal way. You want to go around the waves and in about 50 metres down the shore. And that's where you want to head in."

And so dealing with mental health is a lot like that experience where you learn to actually swim the big waves. You learn how to deal with a big wave.

And there's also a notion of the ocean that it's not something we control. And so sometimes things just happen and you don't choose the size of the wave. You're not the one who's deciding what the swell is going to be in the morning or what the wind is like. You go out and you've got to deal with the situation that you're in. And so a lot of that is mental health. Things just happen. And I may not be able to explain why the wave is big today. I may not be able to rationalize why I'm feeling what I'm feeling right now. But the important thing is actually having the skills to deal with it.

The rip takes it further because you get caught in a rip and especially the first time, you do all the wrong things. You're not supposed to swim into it. You swim against it. You're not supposed to panic. You panic. And so learning that the idea of, "Hey, when I'm in a bit of a mental health crisis or I'm feeling a little bit wobbly, fighting this thing and saying, 'No, I'm not. I'm not having a problem. I'm fine,' is the wrong answer. Panicking is the wrong answer."

You swim basically perpendicular to the wave. So you go off to the side. And I always think about that as you go off and you get help. And so that's texting a friend, calling a friend, immediately taking action that is not fighting this thing you're in, but going in a different direction than what your instincts and your emotions may be screaming.

Interviewer:
[00:31:35] But very aware of that rip right behind you.

Bryan:
[00:31:37] That's right. That's right. And of course, the hopeful future is you get to where you look out and you say, "Ah, that's a rip. I'm not going to go swim through that."

And so that goes back to your previous question about beginning to recognise when trouble may be brewing, not putting yourself in a situation where you know that may cause some instability for you, or knowing that, "Hey, maybe I'm going to have to talk about my mental health crisis. And so what do I do to prepare for that? Or what do I do after that?" And so a little bit of self-care on all sides before you have to get close to a rip and then just knowing where they're at and maybe how to steer clear.

Interviewer:
[00:32:15] Looking back now, do you think your definition of strength has changed?

Bryan:
[00:32:20] Absolutely. I think there's a lot of movie lines about true courage is like when you're afraid. Courage is not the absence of fear. And strength is actually very much the same. I think unless you're tested, you don't know if you're strong. And sometimes the most strength you can show is vulnerability.

And I think once again, we get caught up in these notions of, "I am strong. I am successful. I am intelligent. I am all these things that I place a bunch of rigid meaning on," or "I'm not smart." We get caught in these negative sort of, again, such rigid concepts.

And so the idea that says, "Do I have to be the strongest person out there by other people's standards?" No. And instead, be more present in the moment and be able to deal with what life hands us and not be so focused on this rigid sense of what my identity is on a long-term basis.

True strength is showing that you're able to be real about who you are and about what you're facing and to deal with the fact that, "Hey, every once in a while, someone may not be excited about these sorts of things and you may get rejected. And that's okay. And you keep going."

Interviewer:
[00:33:37] If there's someone out there now listening to your story, Bryan, who's built their identity around work or achievements or looking like they've got it all together, but privately inside they're struggling, what would you want them to know?

Bryan:
[00:33:52] First and foremost, certainly if they've listened to what we've talked about today, they're not alone. I went through it.

And as I went through my journey, I published a blog on my experience. And as I began to talk to friends, more and more people told me, "I've been through something very similar." And these were also professionals who were career-oriented and had had great success in their careers.

And luckily, I think over the last decade or so, the concept of imposter syndrome has opened the door a little bit where a lot of people who are incredibly successful have said, "Well, I felt like a fraud every day during my career." And so this has opened the door for a little bit more of a realistic picture of what life's actually like, that it's hard, that we all work hard and we struggle.

And I especially think a lot of successful professionals, we get taught to be very analytical, to see cause and effect, to be able to explain ROI, to understand impact. And that can be misleading where you begin to apply that to your own life, where you think things that are happening to me are a result of something that I've done that are my fault, my responsibility.

And I think you're in this time that is totally irrational. Your brain is not behaving in any rational manner. Why would you think there's some rational explanation for something you've done that may have led you to this? And there may be a time for some therapy that helps you understand how to better prepare yourself. But in that moment, that desire to be calculating and analytical and understand everything is the wrong one.

We don't try to self-diagnose medical issues before going to a GP. We don't try to say, "Well, I think this actually could be my vitamin K levels and I have too many phosphates in my bloodstream." We go to a GP and we let them sort it out and help us.

And the same thing for these sorts of situations is we shouldn't analyse what's wrong. We should just go get help.

And so if there's anything that I would leave people with, it's just to take that first step and get help wherever they can get it.

Interviewer:
[00:35:52] Yeah. Thanks so much for being here, for sharing your story. It's so important to hear different versions of life and how people have navigated and negotiated it. Thanks so much, Bryan.

Bryan:
[00:36:04] Thank you. It's an honour to get to share my story. And we talked about purpose. And if we reach one person through this, that's filled my purpose for a month.

Interviewer:
[00:36:16] Brilliant.

Bryan:
[00:36:16] So thank you for all the work that you do here on this podcast and helping others get to hear stories like this.

Host:
[00:36:22] Thanks for listening to Holding on to Hope, the podcast. Lifeline is grateful to all Holding on to Hope participants for choosing to share their personal lived experiences openly and courageously in order to offer hope and inspiration to others. Your act of kindness makes for a better world. And remember, you can call Lifeline at any time on 131114.