Darcy: We acknowledge the lives lost to suicide and recognise those who have survived suicide attempts and those who struggle today or in the past with thoughts of suicide, mental health issues and crisis situations. We acknowledge all those who have felt the deep impact of suicide, including those who love, care and support people experiencing suicidality and those experiencing the pain and bereavement through suicide. We respect collaboration with people who have lived or living experience of suicide and mental health issues and value their contribution to the work we do.

Maddie: After we had grown and learnt together, what then culminated into this moment ended up being in a really cheesy way, it was a nice fresh thought to what was going to be the next chapter of my life.

Darcy: Welcome to Holding on to Hope, the series that shares the stories of everyday Australians that have experienced moments in crisis and found a path to support. Whilst all of the stories shared of hope and inspiration, at times, you may hear something you find triggering. If you or someone you know needs crisis support, please phone Lifeline on 1311 14 Text 0477 1311 14 or visit lifeline.org.au for Lifeline chat service, which is 24/7.

Ruben: Hello, and thank you for joining me. I'm Ruben and I'm a volunteer telephone Crisis Supporter at Lifeline. I'm one of the voices you may hear if you call for support. At the age of 15, I lost my dear father to suicide. Ever since that fateful day, I always wished my father had the opportunity to talk to someone like me when he needed it the most. 13 years later, and four years into my journey with Lifeline I'm now part of that opportunity and this is why I'm so passionate about hosting this series. If you're not quite ready to talk, perhaps you'll find comfort by listening to the stories of people who have experienced the value of reaching out for help. On today's episode, we're joined by Maddie. A turning point in Year 10 led her to seek help, define cultural taboos surrounding mental health. Her story transformed from seeking assistance to becoming a beacon of hope through a mental health seminar and advocacy work. Through university challenges and candid conversations, Maddie found the strength to confront her inner struggles. Today she shares insights about her transformation, the role of family support, and the importance of embracing imperfection. Maddie, thank you so much for joining me, can you share with us your journey from being a cheerful, happy-go lucky girl to facing the challenges of adolescence.

Maddie: When I was in primary school, I was really active as a kid. I was a competitive swimmer, I was a competitive dancer. And I was actually pretty decent at these sports as well. I also played piano and I was really into performing arts, so singing, dancing, musicals, you name it. And so overall, growing up in primary school, I was really happy. People would describe me as having a really bubbly spirit. And then I went into high school. I think growing up when I was in primary school, I was always winning. I was coming first in singing competitions, I was coming first in dance and competitions. Even when I was doing piano exams, I would get A's and A pluses. And then I went to a partially selective school. So I wasn't a selective stream. All of a sudden, I realised I was not winning, I was not the best anymore. I was surrounded by incredibly intelligent people, I was surrounded by kids who were 10 times more athletic than me 10 times more musical than me and everything that I thought I was good at, I didn't feel that way when I went into high school. And so it really took a hit on my confidence. It really made me feel like I was a little bit inferior. And I think it really changed the way that I saw myself. And because of that, in the back of my mind, I kept thinking of myself as being a loser or being a failure. And that's when everything kind of started or everything kind of unfolded from there.

Ruben: How did you cope with the academic pressures and the burden of perfectionism whilst navigating through those years?

Maddie: So to be honest, I didn't cope well. It was a really big challenge. For me growing up, I'm the eldest daughter. More than that, I have no older cousins. So I'm the first of my generation. And because of that, I had a lot of people, my aunties, my uncles, my mom, and my dad, they would always say to me, Oh, look, ‘this cousin is looking up to you, your sister is looking up to you’. Whilst no one explicitly said to me, you need to do a good job, I kind of put that pressure on myself. So growing up the mentality I always had was, if I can't be perfect, I'm going to get as close as I can to being perfect. So when I would do homework, after I came home from school, for example, in math, I would get one of the solutions wrong, I’d be really upset at myself, Like why didn't I get this right?

And it was like one question out of 50 or whatever, but I got it wrong. And I would get so upset and I would redo it again and again and at times, it's a really exhausting pattern to do. After 30 minutes I will just close the books and give up and that was not a good thing to do. As I got older, I realised that you will not always be good at everything, and that is okay. And I slowly learned in high school that math was probably not my forte and I was better at other things like English. So I would dedicate myself into the subjects that actually enjoyed that probably compromised my other scores. But at least I was doing work and I had that cycle and that routine that kept me ahead of the game, and kept me more lightheaded in the way that I think about school and the way that I think about perfection and what not.

Ruben: Struggling with self confidence, you maintained a determination to make your immigrant parents proud. Could you tell us a bit about that driving force and how it influenced your decisions?

Maddie: So my parents moved to Australia when I was three years old. And I'm forever grateful for that sacrifice that they did for us. My parents were both very successful professionals in Indonesia, particularly my mom. So she was a, like a senior manager at a really global banking firm and then when she moved to Australia, none of her credentials meant anything. And so she ended up becoming an accountant, she was a stay at home mum for a while because she couldn't get a job. She's still working now. But every now and then, particularly towards the end of my high school years, and when I started uni, she would always remind me about heydays. And she'd always be like, I did this when I was like, only 25, I did this, and I’d just sit down and be like, Oh, my goodness, like my mom is incredible. She's someone that I really look up to. And then here I am, in reality, not doing so well, in school, I just felt like a burden to my parents, I didn't want to disappoint them in any way. And again, that's why I strive for perfection, because no matter what I did, I wanted to make sure I did them proud. But more than anything, I wanted them to know that them moving to Australia was the best decision that they've ever made, despite the sacrifices that they've made. I guess it really influenced my mentality, and the way that I did well in school, in the way that I didn't do well in school.

And because of that, I wanted to make sure that everything was worth it. And again, that kind of goes back into the cycle of this idea of me being perfect. How can I make sure that my mom doesn't see that there are cracks on my face, even though deep down inside, I'm really struggling with math or geography? How can I make sure that I rock up to school with a smile on my face and keep pretending to be that bubbly girl so that my mum doesn't have to worry about me. My biggest concern growing up was to make sure that my parents were not worried about me. And I think as time went on, these cracks, they don't really stay below the surface for very long, they slowly start to appear. And I think that's when everything really changed not only for myself, but within the family dynamic as well.

Ruben: In year 10, you realise you needed help and sought professional guidance, despite the cultural stigma around mental health. How did you find the strength to fire those to those and seek the support you needed?

Maddie: Year 10 is when my emotions got really volatile. For example, whenever a teacher would announce an assessment, I would stand up and just be really loud, like, Oh my God, why is there a test and those kinds of reactions. When I was actually taking my exams, I would start sweating uncontrollably. The pen that I was holding felt like it weighed hundreds of kilos. And I would see water on my test paper, only to realise that I've been crying throughout the entire thing. And it was towards the end of term two term three where I realised, okay, this isn't normal, I actually need help. And so I spoke to my mom about at first, she was someone I trusted, and I said, Mom, I want to visit a psychologist and she was like why?

It was a very confronting conversation. Because in my culture, our mental health is very taboo. We don't speak about it, no one talks about their mental health. A lot of people would say to me, if it's in your head, you turn it off, as it's like something that I can just flick on and off. And so at first she didn't understand why I needed to see a psychologist. However, over time, the more I explained to her I think my mental health is starting to be a detriment to my schoolwork, it's starting to be a detriment to the way that I feel. She was like, Okay, let's go, let's go see a psychologist and I ended up getting diagnosed with generalised anxiety disorder and panic disorder. And when I got this diagnosis, I was incredibly relieved, mainly because I finally knew what the problem was. And I had something or someone that could help me. And I really wanted to try and get better.

But when I went home, and I told my dad about it, he wasn't very accepting. He couldn't understand what generalised anxiety disorder what is a mental health problem, what is a mental health issue, he just didn't get it. Because in his world, again, if it's in your head, you just turn it off, you should be able to carry it on with your day. And we talk about this a lot in mental health, but obviously, it's an invisible symptom, right? In some cases, I don't have a scar showing I have depression, or I don't have a scar showing I have anxiety. My dad couldn't see it, and therefore he couldn't understand. And that really caused a bit of a rift between us. But I could never really blame him for thinking that way. Because as I mentioned, no one in my community spoke about it. It was a really tricky time but I think having my mum there for me, was the main contributor that basically allowed me to get that off. And I'm really, really grateful for her patients and for her kindness in that way.

Ruben: You're journey took a transformative turn as you shifted from seeking help to becoming an advocate for mental health. Could you share with us how you harness your experiences to create a mental health seminar and spread awareness with Batyr?

Maddie: Batyr is a mental health organisation, our logo is an elephant and we want to talk about the elephant in the room, which is mental health. I'm a speaker for the Batyr, which basically means I'm able to go to schools, universities, workplaces, and I get to present at some events if I'm lucky, and I get to share my story in a safe way, in hopes that the audience and the folks who are listening can understand what it actually feels like to go through a mental health issue. But more than that, we aim to break the negative stigma surrounding mental health not only for the youth, but for adults and everyone in between.

Darcy: We hope you're enjoying this episode. Lifeline’s new support toolkit makes it easier to care for family, friends and loved ones and look after yourself along the way, visit usn at toolkit.lifeline.org.au. Now back to the episode.

Ruben: Moving on to your university. Were you expecting a fresh start? And how did your experiences with mental health shape your expectations?

Maddie: So I thought once I finished high school and I started university, all of my problems would that disappear. I was studying psychology which made sense. I wanted to become a psychologist. And I was like, Okay, this is my time to shine, blank slate. Here we go. Within my first year of university again, that feeling of not being the best came over me again. I was doing two core psychology units and a bunch of electives and my psychology units were the ones I did not do a good job on which was very upsetting. In my first year of uni, I was already doubting myself from a career perspective. It's a whole another load of pressure when you get to university, right? You feel like whatever you're studying right now is going to determine the career for literally the rest of your life, right? We're going to be working nine to five or whatever it is. I was already really stressed about my career options in my first semester of university. As first year went on, there were a couple of other things in my personal life that really exacerbated my mental health.

It all came down to a boiling point. And I remember this moment very vividly. I was sitting on the couch upstairs, no one was around me and I was watching this episode of The Bachelorette. It was the episode where Heather claimed the white rose, and it was her and Sam Woods season. And they dressed up as superheroes. And everything in that episode was going fantastically. But for me, I felt so numb, and suddenly I just had to cry. And I was sobbing very quietly to myself, whatever it was, that was in me at the time, I actually picked up the phone and I called Lifeline. I spoke to the other person on the line telling them that I just wanted to disappear. I wanted to run away, I wanted to evaporate, I wanted to become nothing. And I was just hyperventilating and sobbing. And I'm trying not to make too much noise because I don't want my parents to hear me cry. My sister's in her room next door. I don't want her to hear me crying as well.

So I was just sobbing and just having an absolute breakdown. After some time the Lifeline Crisis Supporter convinced me to call my psychologist and I did so the next day, I visited my psychologist and I was sobbing again. And I remember just feeling an overwhelming feeling of disappointment. And I used that word because I was so embarrassed of going back into this negative headspace. And by this point, I had been advocating for mental health for about, you know, two to three years, I was really proud of myself and I go to these high schools and I'm like, Hey, we're gonna smash this negative stigma around mental health. And then there I was in my psychologist office absolutely crushed and just crying. And after some more talking, she said that I had very severe symptoms of clinical depression, she advised me to tell my mom, but that was something I didn't want to do. I didn't want to be a burden again. I didn't want to be a disappointment. I didn't want my mom to worry about me.

But given how fragile the situation was and how fragile I was, my psychologist obviously had to call my mom. And my mom came in and I remember feeling heartbroken. It's one of those like, worst feelings I've had in my life so far. I just remember seeing her face drop and just like what happened, what's wrong. And I couldn't even articulate to her how I was feeling because I was just so destroyed. And again, I didn't really understand why I was feeling this way. I just knew I was sad and angry. And my thoughts were very dark and scary. I think just having to tell my mom was one obstacle that I had to cross. What made things more nerve wracking was the fact that I did have to go home and tell my dad. And as I mentioned, my dad was probably not the most supportive person in the beginning of my journey. So that was another really daunting experience to deal with.

Ruben: Was there that support element given of how to bring or deliver that message across?

Maddie: I think the first time round, I would be very vague about how I was feeling. Obviously when I went to go visit my psychologist in the first place, you're having a very safe and private conversation with them. You've got that confidentiality between yourself and the psychologist so my mum would only get tidbits. She knew that I was getting better because obviously I was more myself, but in terms of the actual why she probably couldn't have the full picture. My mum was there for me since the beginning. So the more sessions I went to at my psychologist, I learned that I could trust her. And actually, since then she's become my best friend. And so I became more open to her. So for my mom, when I'm not open to her, she knows something's not right. And I think during that period of time, when all those events kind of catastrophize into this moment, I was already pretty detached from her.

So I have a feeling and she talks about it. Now that it's, it's seven years ago, but she'll tell me that she knew something wasn't right. But because you're a moody teenager, or you're a moody person in your 20s, she doesn't know how to reach out to me if she didn't know how to ask me if I was okay, in a way without me exploding back at her. So it was really hard for her as well. When my psychologist called my mom, and I had to go home that way, I again, I couldn't verbally articulate to her what I was feeling. But I physically was just a slump on the ground, I got home, I got into the kitchen, and I just fell to the ground. And I was just crying. And the two things I kept saying to my mum, and my dad was, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, I need help. And that's all I could really say. And, you know, getting emotional about it but even when I think about that moment now, my mom's grace, and just being able to hug me and tell me, whatever you're going through, I'm getting on that ride with you. I'm just so grateful for that, you know, she's just such an incredible person.

My dad, by that point, after I did my seminar for high school, my dad became a little bit more aware and was more open to mental health. So by that point, he kind of understood what I was going through. But even then he just gave me a hug as well and said, we'll figure this out, don't worry. And so I think having my parents support, particularly during that very, very low point was such a turning point, not only for myself, but for my family, we started to get more in sync and our relationship was on thin ice during high school, because of my emotions, because of their emotions because of our expectations of each other. But I think after we had grown and learnt together, what then culminated into this moment ended up being in a really cheesy way. It was a nice, fresh start to what was going to be the next chapter of my life.

Ruben: You mentioned moments of darkness and reaching out to Lifeline. How did those challenges shape your perspective on seeking help, especially in the face of cultural and personal barriers?

Maddie: I think in my early 20s, something that I learned was how to prioritise yourself. Growing up, particularly in my community, you're always taught to serve others, you want to make sure that your grandma's okay, yar ou want to make sure that your aunties are okay, your uncles are okay. It's not so much about yourself, but it's more about the people around you. Yeah, when I was going through troubles in my early 20s, I was a lot more bubbly back then, as well back to my normal personality.

And I would have friends, but friends would come and go, you kind of learn during that time, that if there's anyone that you're going to trust or back, it's going to be yourself. And so despite all of the stigma, particularly from that cultural perspective, my goal was to be better. My goal was to be the best version of myself. And I learned that the only way I could do that was to get help. And if other people saw me in a different light for seeking out for help, they can have their own judgments. But that's not going to impact the way that I run my own life. And that's not going to impact the way that I perceive is the right way to do things. So that's something that I learned. And it's something that I think it's a lesson that I carry with me even till today. And I think it's a lesson that to continue to learn for the rest of my life.

Ruben: Could you elaborate on your relationship with your father, his transformation and the impact it had on your recovery?

Maddie: If there's anyone that I'm most proud of it's my dad. And the reason why I say this is when I went through that bout of depression, when I called Lifeline and I was at my lowest, my psychologist actually recommended that I take antidepressants, and I was really weary about it. I didn't want to take it, the media doesn't really portray taking antidepressants in a positive light. And I was really scared about the repercussions.

The person who changed my mind about this as my dad, and I remember, I came home from uni one day, he sat down at the kitchen table with me. And he's like Maddie, I want to show you this research. But as a really stoked, man, he's very emotionless. He doesn't give me hugs, he doesn't really describe the way he feels with words. He's a very fact-based person. And so on this day, he actually showed me all these research papers that he had found online showing about how antidepressants can actually help the chemical imbalance in your brain. It can help to make people feel happier. It's not as addictive as the media perceives it to be. And so he sat with me and he basically started talking for 20 minutes about, you know, this is what it can do, this is how it can benefit someone's life. And I remember sitting there being so shocked and so wowed at the fact that this man who I once thought didn't want any part of me is now sitting in front of me showing me all the work that he did on his own to try to convince me or to try to give me an opportunity to take an alternative way of treatment so that I can better myself.

Because of that conversation. I actually went to my psych the next day or two, and then I said, Yep, I'll give antidepressants a shot, and it's helped for me. For me, personally, a two to three months later, I became a lot more happier, I was able to go outside more, I was able to exercise more. So it really benefited me. And that's all thanks to my dad. Whenever someone comes to me, and they told me, you're like, I don't want to change, I don't want to do this that I always tell them like, it's very much so possible. What I appreciate most about my dad is the fact that it took him a really long time to understand mental health. But he did it in his way, I will never be able to have a conversation with him about my feelings and all that stuff. But we can talk about it in a scientific way. And he'll appreciate that. And I'll have him on my side. And that kind of makes everything a lot better. So his transformation is something I think is very inspirational. And it's something I'm really proud of.

Ruben: What advice do you have, for others looking for a support mechanism?

Maddie: I think what really helped me number one was having a support network, there are probably four people on my contact list that I have on speed dial where I know they will be willing to listen to me with no judgement and their group of friends and family. The second thing for me, I really like organisation, I think that comes into my type A personality. So I love to plan in journal, I earn about three planners and a bullet journal every day, I will journal about how I feel. For me planning is a really calming experience, being able to look forward to my week, and I put stickers and doodles and whatnot. So that's my me time that I do every night before I go to sleep. And every morning when I wake up, it's a good way for me to reflect. And it's a good way for me to calm my nerves about the next day because I have an idea of what I'm going to be doing from a work perspective from a life perspective. So that really helps as well.

And then I think the third thing for me is something that I've had to put in a lot of work for is how to unlearn perfectionism. So with the help of my psychologists, I've had to delete that word from vocabulary basically. It's something that I no longer aspire to. It's something that I don't use, not even at a work perspective, or when I teach piano, I don't like using that word because of the baggage that it had for me growing up. I think I've learned to really live in the moment and become a little bit more chilled in the way that I approach the things that I do. It's funny, because even as I'm saying it out loud, it sounds like a really easy thing, right? But it actually took a lot of months for me to kind of let go of those patterns and behaviours that I had that would make me so obsessed about feeling that way. And again, that's through the help of journaling through the help of seeing my psychologist and being a little bit more active. And I guess daydreaming about different things, as opposed to the things that I think are the right things to do. There's no right or wrong in life. And that's okay. And it's a lesson that I've learned that helps me to alleviate the way that I feel about myself and the pressures that I have on myself as well.

Ruben: What would you like to say to those of our listeners who might be struggling with the idea of perfection, and embracing the imperfections?

Maddie: I think the thing I would tell the people is buckle up and enjoy the journey. One thing that I've had to learn is, no matter what happens, it's a spontaneous moment to life that makes everything worthwhile. It's not what you plan. It's the unexpected moments. And these things, to be quite honest, are the things that scare me the most, they're the things that made me feel anxious. But now I've learned to embrace it for what it is, and enjoy the moment as it is. It isn't linear. That's something that I've had to learn the hard way. And to be quite honest, I actually called Lifeline again last year, and I'm in my mid 20s now. It's okay. And I think with every hurdle that you jump, it's a chapter close and then another one open, and that cycle will continue. Everyone's going to have their good days and was going to have their bad days.

But no matter what you're going to keep climbing up that ladder, you keep climbing up that hill, and you will make it. I really believe in the power of reflections. I think reflecting on everything that you've achieved, or areas that you've overcome is a moment that you should really embrace. And I said this is someone where when you drown out all the noise, you'll realise that you've always been standing on top of that pedestal where you belong. And when you turn around, you'll realise that the stairs that were once dirty and are now clean, and they shine of you. And I say that to myself as well, because I think it's really important to be like I had a really rough week I had a really rough month, but I did it. I overcame. And here I am. And I'm continuing to battle this beautiful thing called life and it's messy and it's unpredictable. But no matter what you get to get through it, and you're going to be okay.

Ruben: I've really appreciate the time that we've had together and I look forward to seeing what's in store for you next. Thank you Maddie.

Maddie: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Darcy: Thanks for listening to Holding on to Hope the podcast. Lifeline is grateful to all holding on to hope participants for choosing to share their personal lived experiences openly and courageously in order to offer hope and inspiration to others. Your act of kindness makes for a better world. And remember, you don't have to struggle, visit toolkit.lifeline.org.au today.