Darcy: We acknowledge the lives lost to suicide and recognise those who have survived suicide attempts and those who struggle today or in the past with thoughts of suicide, mental health issues and crisis situations. We acknowledge all those who have felt the deep impact of suicide, including those who love, care and support people experiencing suicidality and those experiencing the pain and bereavement through suicide. We respect collaboration with people who have lived or living experience of suicide and mental health issues and value their contribution to the work we do.

Ian: It has always been about protecting others, it's never been about ending the pain for myself.

Emily: There are always options. I'm not the problem. There are people around me that understand what I've been through and can relate to it.

Darcy: Welcome to Holding on to Hope, the series that shares the stories of everyday Australians that have experienced moments in crisis and found a path to support. Whilst all of the stories shared of hope and inspiration, at times, you may hear something you find triggering. If you or someone you know needs crisis support, please phone Lifeline on 13 11 14, text 0477 1311 14 or visit toolkit.lifeline.org.au for Lifeline chat service, which is 24/7.

Ruben: Welcome to Holding on to Hope, a podcast brought to you by Lifeline and I'm your host Ruben McCullough. World Suicide Prevention Day carries the weight of both loss and hope. Over this two-part series, we invite you to join us for a heartfelt conversation that sheds light on a topic that often is shrouded in silence and to discuss no matter what life you lead. Suicide doesn't discriminate. In this episode, we will be delving into the stories of two remarkable individuals who have faced the darkest of times yet emerged as beacons of strength and resilience. Our guests come from different walks of life, but they share a common bond, the journey through the depths of despair, and the steadfast pursuit of hope. Our first guest Emily is a 27-year-old with a spirit that shines brilliantly through their challenges. Emily's path has been marked by a kaleidoscope of experiences from navigating their identity as someone who identifies as they them and growing up with immigrant parents to wrestling with autism, ADHD, depression and anxiety. As a teenager, Emily faced battles that spanned beyond the emotional landscape, contending with various types of eating disorders, and even experiencing gender-based violence. And through it all, they found resilience, courage, and the determination to hold on to hope. And then there's Ian- despite a loving mother and maternal family is early years was shadowed by domestic abuse. As a young teenager, he faced a future mirroring his painful past. With unwavering determination, he reshaped his path amid life's trials and found control in shaping his own destiny. From despair emerged empowerment, guiding him along an unexpected journey. Once hopeless, boy, Ian's story now radiates triumph. With 25 years in the military, 3 degrees and a role as a father, he is a resolute advocate for suicide prevention. His journey highlights resilience and the strength of the human spirit. Today, as we share these deeply personal conversations, we're reminded that each person's story holds unique shades of struggle and triumph.

Ian: Hi, Emily, my name is Ian. Whilst I'm not in the habit of giving up pronouns on he him, I am 45 years old. I am the father of three I have an 18 year old, a 15 year old who unfortunately I don't see at the moment and a 21 month old. I've been a soldier pretty much most of my life since I was 16. And I've served with both the British and the Australian Defence Forces

Emily: Wow, I have so many questions! What's your favourite memory or savvy as a soldier? Happiest memory?

Ian: My happiest memory is a bizarre one because it was only a couple of years ago and it was seeing a couple of young girls who were so pleased to see me who'd never met me before, who have now become nieces to me. Nieces because we went through a very traumatic experience together. And so whilst it was very, very frightening, that is a very wonderful memory for me. It's very, the opportunity to actually really make a positive impact on individual lives and make a positive impact on everything that you know defence does is also there, but yeah.

Emily: That's beautiful.

Ian: So tell me a bit about yourself.

Emily: I'm Emily. My pronouns are they them, but if you actively use she her pronouns, it's totally cool. I'm 26 and I currently work as a mental health advocate, but I used to be a software engineer.

Ian: So what's got you into the difference between software engineering and mental health advocacy.

Emily: Honestly, I got into advocacy kind of by accident, I feel like I started advocating out of necessity, because I didn't really feel like I had a voice. And then when I found other people were speaking up about their stories, I really wanted to join that and really help other people like the way that they'd helped me. And then it just became my full-time thing. And like, I love engineering, I love coding, it's really fun, for some reason. Advocacy for me, it's just so meaningful, and I can't imagine my life without it.

Ian: Like I fully understand. I'm very much the same, I sort of fell into it myself. Yeah, it's sort of mentioned earlier. So yeah, that's fantastic. Do you have a little bit of something that you do outside of this? What do you do for fun?

Emily: Oh, my gosh, I tend to accidentally make my hobbies into jobs, I don't know.

Ian: I know the feeling.

Emily: Like I'll start up like something creative, often, so like an art project, but then I'll try to do something that like brings people together. And then it becomes more of like a programme, if anything, like, I just love helping people, I keep getting drawn to those sorts of spaces. But I think if I wasn't doing advocacy, I'd probably be a vet. I love animals.

Ian: It's a wonderful way to bring people together. I find you're able to actually talk about what emotions, the art bring what brings up for you. With engineering and things like that, it's all very logical and binary, you know, there's a cause and effect. Whereas art allows you to actually have that opportunity to explore far beyond what is just oil and canvas or whatever your medium is. So it gives you that opportunity. I think good art really does make you feel something rather than just appreciate a picture more than anything. So no, I get that. It's yeah, I wish I had the talent to be a visual artist, but you know, I can't draw for anything. I try and draw a cow for my daughter, and it looks like a chicken.

Emily: Yeah, I need to see this.

Ian: No, you don't, you really don't. But I did a bit of theatre work a while ago. I say a while ago, it's probably closer to 20 years ago now. But I got the opportunity to work with some very creative people. And it was a wonderful experience. So fully think it's, you know, fully appreciate the creativity that you have. And all the rest of it. I'm very jealous of you.

Emily: I think I find that, like, I have like, thoughts and feelings and emotions that I want to express. But I can't do it in words a lot of the time. So I find that like, sounds like music or like colours, like odd. And sometimes that's a little bit easier for me. Yeah, that's, that's a fair. I think it's like communication, like beyond words a lot of the time. So it's, it's like my way of communicating, like out of necessity again. Yeah, I see some artists that are they're incredibly talented, but I think it's more of the happiness that it brings me. So I do want to see your cow chicken.

Ruben: Can you tell us a little bit about your experiences with suicide, what was going on in your world in your biggest moment of crisis?

Emily: When I think about suicide, I think about my family. And I think I just grew up very much conscious of how much they had done for me. But even before I was born, and my mom had fled a war for me from Vietnam, my dad migrated from Malaysia, and they had just basically survived on nothing to build me this very privileged childhood that I got given. And I got to go to school in a way that they didn't, I got shelter over head and food on the table. And I felt like if I express anything that I was sad, or any sort of upset emotion, I was really ungrateful. And I just tried my best to kind of fulfil all the different expectations that they had of me, and give them the childhood that they didn't get. I just really struggled with that. There were just so many expectations around being like skinny enough, smart enough, getting the right job, being around the right people. And I'd always end up disappointing them in some way. And I think after just trying for so long, I just felt like such a burden to them, and such a burden to everyone that I knew I just had all these like intrusive thoughts that were telling me that everyone was just so much better off without me. And I think I was really tired of trying after some time. And I think suicide for me was not me wanting to dive, it was just me wanting everything to stop and not seeing another way to like, make it the other people around me not suffer from who I was. I just felt like my existence was something bad. And if I removed myself from that, then it would be much better for the people around me. In hindsight like after getting help and everything, I now realise that there were a lot of things going on at the time that I didn't have the language or I guess the literacy or the understanding to understand at the time. Now that I'm older and I've understood a bit more and be able to see a bit more of what was happening to me at the time, I can say that, like I was growing up in a very domestically violent household, like physically and emotionally. I had experienced different bits of homelessness and eating disorders, there were lots of bits of self-harm that I didn't realise at the time. But on the outside, I think no one picked up on it because I was like your stereotypical Asian child, like I had the bob haircut and the glasses and everything I was achieving so well at school, I was so quiet, and it was just really suffering only inside. And I think it's only like in that hindsight, that I was able to realise that there were so many things I needed support for, but I thought that I didn't deserve. I just thought that everyone lived like this or like, no one was like this, I really, I think I just felt really alone. And that if I expressed anything, I was being ungrateful to people who had done so much for me. Yeah, I think that was my first experience with suicide. So I was like, age 12 around that time. And then it's kind of like, come and gone. You know, like, I thought that once I got past that first point, it was like a storybook where you like you defeated the really big monster, and then you wouldn't had to fight the monster again. But like, I think the monster just like, followed me. So there were like other sorts of really big crisis moments where everything just became a little bit too much. And I think it does come down to me struggling with the environments that I'm in, the things that are happening to me. And really, like, I'm just, I'm really trying to get help or trying to be different or seek support. But sometimes there's not support available. And I feel like, you know, if I've tried like one medication or one therapy, or one way of healing, and it doesn't work, I feel like I'm the problem. I think it's just very, like self-blaming, is the reason why I come down to it. And I don't want to burden other people or other things. I think like suicidality is a really weird thing that I'm always going to experience at some level, just even like passively in the background. But I now know that like, there are always options. And I'm not the problem. And there are people around me that understand what I've been through and can relate to it and create space for that. And I just feel so grateful that like, we can have these conversations, where we can make a talk like this, because I think actually I just need to talk about it. I didn't know anyone safe to talk about it with, so thank you.

Ian: You're not the problem. You know, you're a beautiful woman. You're a beautiful soul. You're doing some wonderful things. Want to take a little break?

Emily: Oh, no, I'm good. I'm autistic, I just cry everything. Thank you, thank you, means a lot really.

Ian: Thank you for being able to share your story. I know how hard it can be to share. And at the same time, this is what this space is for. My suicide journey story starts really when I was about 13, and goes through for 25 odd years, I've made effective plans on at least three separate occasions. And on one of those occasions, I and I use this word very deliberately, I executed that plan. For me, my thoughts of suicide have always been about protecting others, removing potential risks, removing potential harm to others, or you know, just like making their lives better. I sort of move backwards, I had a very troubling custody battle with my ex-wife, who to give her credit, she was doing what she thought was best for my two eldest daughters. And I won't say that she wasn't. But it was just so hard to basically be made to feel completely and utterly worthless. And not even worth being in my own children's lives. It broke my heart. That's been protracted for years now. And unfortunately, the animosity between us isn't ever going to go away. But I also suffered some workplace bullying. And that led me down a very, very dark path. I think the worst it was for me when I executed my plan was when I was 13. And I'd watched my father, who I swear was bipolar, he'd been through a lot. He was a volunteer fireman, he'd seen some horrible stuff, and I'm sure he had PTSD. And he would beat my mum, basically make me feel worthless. And one occasion when I tried to protect my mother, he threw me across the room and knocked me out. Back then back in the early 90s, you got 'like father like, son, this is what you're gonna grow up to be' and, you know, that was that was bad enough. But then, after my parents split up, I was sexually abused by a family friend. And you know, I fell into the trap of you know, he showed me love. He showed me understanding. He showed me caring. He showed me what he liked to do with little boys. It wasn't a one-off thing. It was a repeated thing. And again, we were getting the story, the stories you know, pre internet, pre-social media - this is what you're going to grow up to be. So I grew up thinking that I was going to be a wife beating paedophile with a drinking problem, you know, and to me, that was the worst thing you could make. It was I had no self worth, I had no value to society as much as being raped her, at least, the pain stopped when he stopped. Society made me feel far worse than he ever did. Far worse than my father ever did. And so, at the age of 13, I went through the plan and, but for a quirk of fate, here I am. And, you know, no one really ever knew apart from one person who was the person in family and that was my, my grandfather. And he was a wonderful man. But he'd spent most of the Second World War as a prisoner of war camp in Germany, and he was very much we don't talk about this, this will destroy your life if anybody ever finds out about this. So for years, I kept this secret. And I tried, on many occasions to talk about it, but it just never found the right words to use. And I look at it now and I think why was I so stupid? Why? Why didn't I just say what I was going through? Why didn't I explain it? All the signs were there. I was acting out, I was sexually promiscuous to a level that would make Freddie Mercury blush. I would drink, I would self-medicate. It was hard to try and speak to people because what do you say, you know, how do you work broach that subject that you want to kill yourself because you don't want to turn into a wife-beating paedophile because you then have to explain to you why you are going to turn into a wife-beating paedophile and talking about sexual assault, even as my mature age now is hard. Talking about sexual assault back in the 90s, we didn't talk about that stuff. Men didn't talk about that stuff. Whilst we knew it happened, it was something that happened to other people. It's something that stuck with me ever since, this sense of worthlessness, this sense of complete abandon that society had no use for me. It was a rational transaction, my life for someone else's pain. If me not being around, say someone else from being the victim of sexual assault, save someone else from being the victim of domestic violence. It was perfectly rational thought to me. And ironically, I've gotten into a career for the most part where I can be required to make that same call, I can be required to give up my own life for the greater good. Every time I've thought about taking my own life, every time I've thought about the plan and making it you know, and actually going through beyond just, you know, today's really tough day, would it be better if I wasn't here, it has always been about protecting others. It's never been about ending the pain for myself, it has always been about protecting others. I wanted to protect the people at work, I wanted to protect my children. That's it.

Emily: If anything, I feel like you having this conversation with me is really protective for me. I feel like you're really good role model of someone who's been through a lot, a lot of different things. And like, if I have ever like low moments, I will think about this, and this is a really protective thing.

Ian: I appreciate that. Thank you. And trust me, you're going to be in my heart for the rest of my life.

Emily: Likewise.

Ruben: Do you think there's a stigma attached to people that have experiences with suicide? Why is that?

Ian: There is a stigma. Yeah, it's not a usual thing. You know, people can't understand how someone who is perfectly healthy not going through a terminal illness or anything like that would want to end their lives and take their lives. It's such a bizarre thing to actually say to someone, you know, I want to take my life and how do people react to that? They don't know. It was one of those things that was hidden away for so long. We all knew people that there was an indication that they had taken their own lives, but it wasn't talked about, you know, and I think I'm seeing the change. Slowly, but surely I'm seeing this change, especially in my work. I'm seeing more people being willing to talk about it. And seeing that it is a sign of strength. They're allowing themselves to polish out the dent in their armour and show that off and be proud of what they've survived. Yeah, yeah, you know, but you still get idiots that, you know, push this stigma and it breaks my heart. It breaks my heart that we still have the same conversations that I was hearing when I was 12, 13 years old. And I'm now in my mid fourties and I'm still hearing it, hearing some of the conversations that are from very well-meaning people, very loving people who come from a genuine place of love and respect and desire, but just going about it in all the wrong ways. And they don't realise that they're actually feeding the stigma. Everybody's life is important. Everybody's life has value. Even wife- beating paedophiles, they can become better people, there is value in their lives, and they deserve a chance. So if I can say that with everything that I've been through, yeah, that even the people that I have a very low regard for, deserve an opportunity and can improve themselves, then there must be something we're doing right, yeah. But at the same time, the stigma was there for so many years, ingrained in culture ingrained in religion, there's always a reason not to do it. For me, I'm seeing a change. It's slow, but it's sure. I don't want to see a rapid change where everybody's forced to believe and forced to behave in certain ways. I want to see a natural progression. And because that natural progression is what sticks. Rapid change never sticks. And through things like this, we can change that stigma.

Emily: Yeah, I'm so excited to see the slow cultural change, where like, we've become like, a lot more empathetic and open to discussing stuff like this, because it's such a human and common experience. Everyone is, I think, just scared. And there's not enough safe spaces to talk about it.

Ian: I think a lot of people when you say that you have suicides, they shrink away from you. They're kind of scared because there is that misunderstanding. They think that if you are broken enough to want to kill yourselves, are you broken enough to want to kill others? So they're scared for their safety, but they're also scared that they get into the conversation with you that they might themselves realise that their dark thoughts, their hidden secrets might come out that you know, hold on, you know what, I've never really thought about this. But perhaps really, you know, when I've felt down, and I've not felt like getting a bed in the morning, perhaps I'm actually thinking about taking my own life. So I think there is that they're scared of what they don't know. And so when you come forward, and you go to the you know, it's a lot of information. It's a hugely personal bit of information to give. That's all you become to them, you become this suicide person, you are suicide. Yeah, you are the very experience of it. And so yeah, they shy away. I'm seeing more and more people wanting to actually engage and understand. But at the same time, I've seen enough of it the second you say, 'you know what, I think today's the day', and you reach out for help, but they're so scared, because if they say the wrong thing, they think that they are what's going to cause you to go and take your life. And so there is that misunderstanding. They don't know what they don't know. And, you know, everybody's were great that asking, Are you okay, with greater? all this wonderful stuff? What's the next step? Yeah. How do you actually cope with this? So I think a lot of the stigma comes from people not being aware of what the next steps are, but also being scared because they're being fronted with something that means they actually have to look deep inside themselves. To contemplate that soldiers and sailors and airmen and women, we sign a contract that says that our job may course cost us our lives at some point. So we inherently have had that thought process we've ever had no thought about that. So I'm seeing big changes in that area. But I'm not seeing it as fast outside. Everybody talks with the game. But you know, the reality is, it's not always an easy stigma to break through. Absolutely.

Emily: There is definitely stigma, it's so interesting how it comes from different people in different scenarios. In my home growing up, there was such a stigma against suicide and mental health generally, particularly because my parents came from different countries. They didn't even have a word for suicide or mental health, and they couldn't understand what it was. And spiritually, and culturally, you were either like, normal or possessed. And they kind of put me in the possessed category, because that was the only way that they could explain it. And so when I was experiencing all these things that, you know, I didn't have like a graze on my knee or like a scar to point to. It was hard for me to communicate to them, this is what's happening for me. And it was really hard for them to encourage me to speak up about my experiences because they were really worried about what other people would think of them. And I think, just generally there's like this culture that persists in modern society of othering of people. And anything that you think is not you is that, and I think people are just scared of others. And so my parents didn't want me to like other myself further, because I'm already in a culture diverse person of colour. And so anything that made me more different, they just didn't want me to talk about. So I think there's that stigma. But then there was definitely like different stigmas around like school or work where people thought that like you were too privileged to go through this or like, you're too smart to go through this. And there's definitely like, what you said about people being scared about how it reflects on them, and kind of awakening that thought within them, of maybe they're like, are actually me staying in bed for like three days in a row, maybe I should look into that, or like me saying like, I just want to go for a drive for the next like week, like maybe we should talk about that a little bit more. I think it is kind of that existential dread that a lot of people feel that they're not super introspective about, they don't have the language to express about. There's a lot of irrational things that go into my head that have contributed to my experience of suicide. But there's also a lot of rational things like climate change or cost of living, like many people, it's struggling with different things. And a lot of people don't know about the support that's available. So I think we're often feeling like we're hopeless or out of options. And I think for some that, that ends up being some sort of suicidal ideation, whether they call it that or not, there's just a general stigma about not wanting to be labelled as something and the feeling that that's like a permanent thing on you, you know, it's not that bad. You know, I'm just having like, a bad day, but I'm not suicidal. And I think it's a part of like, general mental health conversations where I see you know, people say like, it's okay to not be okay. But as soon as you go talk about suicide, people get really touchy, or they get really scared. Either people greet me with really way too much like intrusive questions, or like they avoid it completely. There's very few spaces where it's really genuine understanding unless it comes from someone that has experienced it and is open to talking about it. It's odd. It's a scary, unknown space that a lot of people aren't really, they don't have the resources or the language to communicate about. And I relate. Like, I used to be like that. But I think I really appreciate these conversations where you and I have understood our experiences so well, that we're able to hold space for each other's experiences, too. And we're not scared of that.

Ian: That's really fantastic. And yeah, I'm reminded of the word from my country of birth, because believe it or not, I was actually born in Papua New Guinea. Yeah, so very bizarre exterior to a very, you know, wonderful history, historical background, but they have the word wantok, meaning one brother, one nation, one sort of togetherness. And whenever I sort of meet someone else with a lived experience like this, regardless of where we sit on the ideological profile, where we sit, there is this instant kinship. Yeah, and I think we've very much developing that right now. You know, so the one talk spirit is there. I love that. Wonderful, thank you so much for sharing. Thank you very much for helping develop this, this wonderful experience.

Emily: Likewise, I think like how we combat that sort of stigma is developing more of that feeling that one talk between more people just pointing out that we might come from very different forms of life, different experiences, we might look different, but they're all those things that tie us together that just make us human. And that's so beautiful to find. I absolutely love conversations like this. It feels like home.

Darcy: We hope you're enjoying this episode. Lifeline's new Support Toolkit makes it easier to care for family, friends and loved ones, and look after yourself along the way. Visit us at toolkit.lifeline.org.au. Now back to the episode.

Ruben: Do you think they judged you for being suicidal, either at the time or even now?

Emily: I definitely think people judged me for being suicidal at the time and definitely now as well. And those judgments can be positive and negative, I think. At the time that things were first happening, like when I was around age 12, definitely a lot more negative judgement. I think there was a lot of trying to hide me or trying to hide my experience. And they felt like that was just something that I felt like I should be really ashamed of, or that it was just another thing that I like, quote, unquote, failed, and just bringing more misery to the people around me. But I think nowadays, there's definitely still some judgement that's negative, but often I'm able to see the more positive judgement or positive assumptions that are made of it such as like, assuming that I have gone through this thing, I'm a survivor, a role model sort of thing. And I think like those judgments can be helpful sometimes, but I think the thing that I've wanted to distil is that I don't want to be necessarily like a role model or seen as like, overcome this massive battle. I think it's just a very human experience. I don't think I'm like an outlier in that sense. The thing is that there are so many people that have very similar experiences to me, whether that be like, feelings or circumstances or thoughts that I heard that it at least like demystifies some things and gives other people permission to talk about it. The judgement nowadays comes from a slightly better place. But I hope that like we can move beyond judgement and start asking questions and start making assumptions.

Ian: I'm gonna say that for me at the time, because no one really knew that what I'd done, no one other than my grandfather. So yeah, I got I got a little bit of judgement from him. But I think I've got more understanding from him than anybody else. You know, as I've gotten older, and I start talking about this sort of stuff, there was judgement of oh, okay, you you've attention seeking here. Yeah. Which really annoys me is like, Yeah, well, yeah, of course, I'm attention seeking, I'm trying to get you to tell me that my life has value that I have worth. Perhaps, you know, today is not the day I die. But I'm seeing a big change. I'm seeing a lot of change. I think there is a little bit of judgement. But like you say, there is it's coming more from a positive place. I think there is a lot more affirmation of acknowledging your lived experience acknowledging that you have the strength to actually share this story. Not because you want to seek attention, because you want to help others realise that they are not alone. And, you know, suicide, being what it is, for the most part is all in your head. So you have the ability to isolate yourself to be alone. Even in a crowded room. You can be the loneliest person on the planet. Yeah. So to actually see that attitude change from judgement to acceptance. Yeah, it's a slow process, it is happening, you know, and just as we can treat a broken leg, we're now being able to treat a broken heart, broken head. Look, I know that I can be my own worst critic. At times, I'm, I will pick every action apart. But what about yourself? You know, have you ever judged yourself when you've been facing a crisis?

Emily: Definitely, I think often. Yeah, I am my worst enemy. Sometimes. I think even though that there have been times where people have definitely said things to me or treated me in certain ways, I've found really unhelpful, even if when they're not around, I would have taken on their voices and like, I bring them around with me in my head, it can be really harmful. If I meet someone that's actually really helping me and asked me all the right questions, sometimes I'll just drown them out. Because like, my thoughts are too loud. I can be my worst enemy in terms of just judging myself say, like, wow, I'm taking like this, this sort of action again, or this is happening against me. Like maybe I like I just, there's so many judgement- intrusive thoughts that I would never let anyone else say to me, but it's so easy for me to say to myself, That's the hardest sort of stigma to get over is the self-stigma. And I think unlearning that for me that internalised discrimination has been the biggest step to me stepping forward and meeting other people. I think I see that sometimes, like, when I talk to other people about my experiences, I can see them grappling with something that like, no one's telling them that this is a bad thing to talk about. But they're getting that from something inside them. That kind of like self-checking that introspection is so important to us, like acknowledging that this is something that's okay to talk about. It is okay to accept about yourself. And so therefore, of course, it's okay to accept about someone else. Before you experienced suicide yourself when you thought about suicide, what did that person look like to you?

Ian: It's weird, because when I first started thinking about it, I was 12-13 year old boy. So we didn't have you know, the social media saturation and all the rest of it. So my experience and suicide was very, very, very sheltered. But it was always through films and TV shows and the like. So I would imagine that someone who was suicidal was that damaged soldier that Vietnam that no one knows what I've been through, man, you know, so there was his anger always assumed that, you know, there was his anger in there. Or that was the nerdy kid that was, you know, had the big black trench coat that was just always moody and you know, the sun, the sun never shone in their lives. There was this stereotype of they were either really, really angry, or they were disenfranchised and completely alone. So growing up, that's what I thought. So when I went through my suicidality, it was really weird suddenly realising that I was the nerdy kid, I was that stereotype. Yes, I had the black trench coat, and, yes, I wandered around, Woe is me. But it was it was really sort of scary. Nowadays I see so much more. I see there is no archetype of what's someone with suicidal thoughts looks like, how they behave. Yes, we can pick up on subtle cues through counselling and conversations and behaviours. But you and I are polar opposites and we've been through the same thing. And I've met so many, so many people. I was in Papua New Guinea last year and I was talking to a young lady. We were having a fantastic time. She was one of the barmaids and she asked me what I do in my spare time. I said, I'm an advocate for suicide prevention. And all of a sudden, she just like, you don't look like. I was like, what does someone with suicidal thoughts look like? Very honestly, she just said, well, they look miserable. And just like, well, yeah, but they're miserable on the inside, they can put the mask on the outside like everybody else.

Emily: I love your comment about social media as well, because like, my idea of a person that I would think of is very influenced by media generally. But I had a lot more like social media sort of things, I think of like celebrities and like rock stars, that the movie interpretation is really interesting. I would have liked to see like trench perky and aesthetic.

Ian: Let's say it's a good luck. Yeah. I always found it strange that when people you know, talk about suicide, they haven't got real understanding. And I find it hard to describe, what would you want someone to know about what it feels like to be suicidal?

Emily: I associated with kind of like feelings of heaviness, and like inner conflict. And I find that like, I'm often torn particularly if I know that it's something that I could seek help for. But then I don't want to at the same time, so I feel like I'm like warring with myself and fighting with these, like inner voices that I know, rationally, that the thoughts that I'm experiencing aren't true. But then I feel them so intensely, deeply. I know that like help is available, that I have people to talk to, but I really, really don't want to burden them. I think there's just that like, pull and push that so tiring, it can feel everything all at once, and then nothing at all. And for me that numbness is really scary. I think, when I know that I feel the numbness, that's the bit that I get most worried about how I'm feeling. If I were to tell anyone, like, the main bit that's really important is like, particularly seeking help. Like if someone expresses to you that they are struggling with something they know they have experienced something previously, just know that like, they've fought so much with themselves to get to that point where they can talk to you about it. So like, please try to not, try to make it a little bit easier for them to talk to you. Because I think sometimes I'm sorry, like out of energy, when I get to that point where I can talk to someone that I can also fight the battle for them as well. I can't fight like explain it to them too. I just want to be like held in that space and just be listened to. So I think that's something. Just see it as a point of empathy, that this person has gone through a lot before they reach that point.

Ian: For me, it's that moment work comes a rational transaction. And it just, it's so logical. You've had the battle, you're so tired, and it's just, this is the rational transaction I have to make right now. If I'm coming to you, and I'm talking to you about it, please understand that don't ask me the stupid questions. Are you sure? Because of course I'm bloody sure. Yeah. Nice. Thank you so much for that. I see the similarities in that.

Emily: Thank you. I know that for me, like healing, and coping has catalogue, like building a little toolbox of little recovery things. I'm wondering what's in your toolbox, like what do you use every day to help yourself curve?

Ian: I think extensially, I try and look on the bright side of life. I try and be as positive and as upbeat as I can be, you know, I use humour to deflect tough times. And I try not to stress about what's happened. I've I've very much looked for the solution to a problem. I'm not going to be able to turn back and go back in time and change what's caused the problem. So let's just work on the solution. But look, I mean, there's lots of little things that we do. I mean, I'm a great believer in binaural beats, I love just sticking me earphones in and you know, putting it up on the, on the computer and just listening to you know, two hours worth of stuff whilst I'm doing other work. I find it quite Zen. One of my biggest saving graces and the ability to actually get myself out of myself. And this is gonna sound really weird. I like to juggle. I grab my journals, and I juggle away. And as I go through this process, because I'm concentrating on the job, it helps clear my mind it's the bulk flow through the body or the mind, all that sort of stuff. It reaches this zen like moment for me. I have all the other sorts of techniques, thinking about acceptance of commitment, style therapy and working through stuff but to me, one of the easiest things I can do day to day is pick up my balls and juggle.

Emily: That's so beautiful. How many can you keep?

Ian: I'm just a three ball kind of guy.

Emily: I mean, like, it's better than me. One I struggle with. Yeah. That's so cool.

Ian: I just gotta juggle clubs and knives every now and again. Yeah, the wife's banned me from buying flaming clubs. But one day, one day.

Emily: That's awesome.

Ian: You've heard about my juggling. What do you do day to day to help you get through the difficult times? We all have them.

Emily: I know that there are safe people in my life that I can like talk to or just go and sit with. Sometimes I have like kind of code words that I'll tell my partner be like, today's like a this day. And he'll know like, I'll come home and he will have made like a little nest of like blankets for me to just hop into and I'll just nest for a little while. That's really nice. But then I definitely lose myself in some things like, like you do with juggling. Definitely no juggling for me, I have really bad hand eye coordination. But it's like video games, like I love like getting lost in the game and the sense of like achievement, dopamine, everything that comes from that, like being in another world. It just gives me like a sense of like control and joy that I can't really find elsewhere. One of the biggest things that I can't really imagine my life without is this sort of stuff like this advocacy, connecting with people that really understand what it is because they've lived through it. And I think the opportunity to be able to use your story to change it for someone else is invaluable to me. And I think that's something that has been such a protective factor in my recovery journey. I think like a lot of people might see advocacy is like really selfless. But I think there's so much that like people like you and I gain from this as well sharing our stories, connecting with others. It's so healing and beautiful. And it gives me such hope for future people who don't have to go through the struggles that we did to fight the same fights. There's so much joy and better be part of that change.

Ian: Oh yeah, the congruence and the cathartic nature of advocacy work is absolutely, it's a hidden little gem in there. You know, yes, I really get it, you know, you finish days like this, you're either completely drained or you're euphoric. And often there's this bounce between the two, as you drive home is when you stick on some baby metal or something along those lines and have a bit of a laugh on the way home. Yeah, let's sing out to some set showtunes. It's a way we go.

Emily: No, but that sense of like, wow, like really bad, my soul that vulnerability, like vulnerability within this sense is so like, tiring, but beautiful. And it's so unique. And I'm so grateful for this.

Ian: I love the idea of the mess. We used to do something very similar with my daughter. We'd play hidden object game and we put cushions on the ground and we'd have a blanket over it. And we'd sit there and just play this hypnotic for four hours. So yeah, I get that. That's beautiful. Thank you. So early, you mentioned about the stereotype of being a young Asian girl being too smart, too privileged. But at the same time, you really demonstrated that there was no set pattern as to who can be suicidal and what can give it away. So what do you think of that sort of image? Do you have a way of identifying who shouldn't feel suicidal? Is there something there you can look at and take a look? What does someone with suicidality look like?

Emily: There are so many things I was told, like to my face that I wasn't poor enough, or I wasn't ugly enough, or like dumb enough, or like these sorts of things. To be suicidal was like I had to meet a criteria to appear like someone that was suicidal. And it felt really difficult because I'm very invalidating. I felt like my experiences weren't important enough to be helped and that I was so aware of that at the time as well. Like I was so aware of how privileged I was compared to a lot of people that I know are suffering, I think particularly because my mom had come from such a difficult background and my dad was like, they fled wars and countries and struggled so much through so much hate to build this life for me, that I felt like I didn't have any justification to feel upset or complain or ask for support because they hadn't. I think that was one of the hardest things and now I realised that there isn't too smart or too kind or too anything, anyone can experience suicide. I think most people are affected by suicide in one way or another, whether it be someone that they've lost or someone that they know that they've lost. I think there's no one way that people can look or experience it, it just it affects all of us in different and nuanced ways. And I wish that I knew that at the time because it was so so incredibly invalidating to know that I was experiencing these things, know that I needed support for. But then I would hear these accusations from people saying that just because of the way that I looked or the circumstances that I was born into, I wasn't allowed to or I couldn't feel that way. It just felt like there was just like incongruence that, you know, because you're Asian, you can't be suicidal. It's wild to think back now that I think it can affect anyone regardless of who they are or where they come from. Since we're at the end of today, like before you even met me, or maybe when you saw me initially, what did you think we were going to talk about? Like how did you think this conversation would go? Were you surprised by anything?

Ian: I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't anxious about today, and meeting you and having this conversation and where were we at? Because the whole premise of this is that, you know, suicide doesn't discriminate. And you know, the heart of the whole idea that we've two very different people are going to sit down and have a conversation. Yes, I was anxious. And I don't know what I really expected from you. But I hope that we were going to have that one top connection, and we're going to have that. But at the same time, I was very, very nervous that because the whole concept was polar opposites talking that we were going to sit here and it would just, it would just be tense. Yeah. But the one thing I haven't gotten, the one thing that I feel that I can take away from this is we've had a wonderful, genuine connection on a very deep level, and one that will I hope, I know it's gonna change my life. I hope you feel the same. But I don't want to put words in your mouth. But what about you, you know, it's obviously coming in and seeing me the way I am and the way I talk? And then now, what were you coming in with? Have I surprised you in any way, shape or form?

Emily: Coming into this conversation, I knew that you were a person that had experiences with suicide, and you knew what this conversation would be about. So I knew that you would be a safe person to talk to about that. I think that kind of like shared humanity and like purposeful vulnerability, I expected. It always surprises me like that, that deep human connection that ties us together, even though we're so completely different humans from almost every aspect. It's so so beautiful that we have that shared feeling, that shared passion, I can feel that so probably, even though this is literally nothing that ties us together like I can't juggle to save my life and you can and that's like out of everything else. So I say like, the most surprising thing is that you can juggle, I think I can't tell you like how appreciative I am of this conversation and how much I've taken away from it to you so much.

Darcy: Thanks for listening to Holding on to Hope, the podcast. Lifeline is grateful to all holding on to hope participants for choosing to share their personal lived experiences openly and courageously. In order to offer hope and inspiration to others. Your act of kindness makes for a better world. And remember, you don't have to struggle alone, visit toolkit.lifeline.org.au today.